Waypoint naming help needed.

[0405 Andrew]

Please could you help me understand Waypoint naming and what you would hope to see in your cockpit Nav system.

Waypoints in missions may be a little sparse and not named, so I would like to rectify that. Not having a huge amount of experience with this I require your help and an explanation for my reference, if you would like them added correctly. All airframes also have their own quirks so please state what you are flying. I understand Fence in / out and targets. Do you require others and let me know how they should be named. How much should be written, character limitations etc.
I'll start off, Even though Hueys don't have it programmed in we do have them written down, occasionally.

60 squadron
PZ - Take off location
CP - Control point, feature on the ground to identify, maybe to one side.
ACP- A feature point to fly over
RP- Prepare for landing
LZ- Landing zone

[Flyco]

I try and name all of my waypoints, other than where they are very close together. I start off with the runway threshold which I label 'T/O'. This is to give a fixed time for the route, and is usually 15 minutes after the planned join, so as to allow start up and taxi. I then use a a point shortly after T/O, on the extended r/w centre-line, which I name 'Departure' - this is about 2-5 nm away, and is intended to allow formation to join up before turning onto heading and starting the climb proper - again a chance to check and adjust speed for future timing. From there on I tend to label significant points, descriptive of what they are or what they represent; typical of these will be; 'TOC', 'Fence In', 'Coast in', 'Lake, 'E Hold', 'IP', 'Tgt 1', etc. To be honest this is as much to jog my sclerotic memory as much as anything; however I do think that it makes it easier for all to keep track when on R/T.

For LL I like to put a WP at fairly frequent intervals, to avoid missing a turn critical turn etc. As an example here is a set of WP I am using for a Huey SAS pick up sortie:

WP 0 Not labelled because there are 2 separate 4-ships taking of from adjacent FARPS
WP 1 and 2
WP 3 'FENCE IN' (mainly a memory jog for me)
WP 4 'CLIMB' (requires climb of 6000 ft to scrape over a saddle - Lead sets 40 psi and 60 kias, to allow heavier gun ships to stay with it)
(lead also sets min of 15 psi for the subsequent rapid descent to try and hold formation compact)
WP 5 unlabelled - a turn
WP 6 'SAM ALLEY' (entry into a valley where we are under SAM-6 threat for 20-30 seconds = and yes they do fire and you do need to hide behind terrain to break lock)
WP 7, 8 and 9 (Minor turns to make best use of cover from fixed check points)
WP 10 'MIZUR TURN' (critical 120 degree turn just short of an enemy strong point)
WP 11, 12, 13, 14 (Again turns to stay in dead ground)
WP 15 'VALLEY N' ( Hard 100 degree descending turn to run in to pick-up point)
WP 16 'PICK UP' (Take on board men and crates)
WP 17 'CLIMB OUT' (Start of climb to clear 11,000 ft saddle)
WP 18 'TOC' (Top of the ridge at 11,000 ft)
WP 19 'FENCE' (Border and start of descent)
WP 20 and 21 (Following a river)
WP 22 'LAND' (Landing)

It takes time, but 'time spent in planning is seldom wasted'.

It also helps when there are multiple units involved (as in this mission). The top cover and SEAD ac will have different WP, but I will include on their 'itinerary' critical Huey ones such as 'SAM ALLEY@, by when the F-18s should have done their SEAD bit. The other 'named' ones are also on the A-10's system, so that they can monitor progress and knock-out or identify to the RW any threats.

I have gone into detail, to explain why I think named WPs can be very helpful, but must not be overdone - I can only remember 4 or 5 items at any time as you may have noticed.

Incidentally, Andrew, I would like to fly this RW element with you some time, just to check it out and get you views.

[Neil Willis]

For the F/a-18s, not critically important to have named waypoints - with two exceptions - the Bullseye is very important, and needs to be labelled as such, and briefed too.

Apart from that, all the mission planners need to worry about is target co-located waypoints, which again, ought to be labelled and briefed.

[0405 Andrew]

Cheers Neil,

[Father Cool]

In the F-14 we can only have 3 waypoints added in the ME. Although you can add as many as you like we only get the first 3 and they are labelled WP1, 2, 3.

We do in addition have selectable points for FP, IP, ST & HB which are useful however we have to program those in in pit, ideally from a map point (FP must and HB should stay as pre programmed for nav purposes).

[0405 Andrew]

I try and name all of my waypoints, other than where they are very close together. I start off with the runway threshold which I label 'T/O'. This is to give a fixed time for the route, and is usually 15 minutes after the planned join, so as to allow start up and taxi. I then use a a point shortly after T/O, on the extended r/w centre-line, which I name 'Departure' - this is about 2-5 nm away, and is intended to allow formation to join up before turning onto heading and starting the climb proper - again a chance to check and adjust speed for future timing. From there on I tend to label significant points, descriptive of what they are or what they represent; typical of these will be; 'TOC', 'Fence In', 'Coast in', 'Lake, 'E Hold', 'IP', 'Tgt 1', etc. To be honest this is as much to jog my sclerotic memory as much as anything; however I do think that it makes it easier for all to keep track when on R/T.

For LL I like to put a WP at fairly frequent intervals, to avoid missing a turn critical turn etc. As an example here is a set of WP I am using for a Huey SAS pick up sortie:

WP 0 Not labelled because there are 2 separate 4-ships taking of from adjacent FARPS
WP 1 and 2
WP 3 'FENCE IN' (mainly a memory jog for me)
WP 4 'CLIMB' (requires climb of 6000 ft to scrape over a saddle - Lead sets 40 psi and 60 kias, to allow heavier gun ships to stay with it)
(lead also sets min of 15 psi for the subsequent rapid descent to try and hold formation compact)
WP 5 unlabelled - a turn
WP 6 'SAM ALLEY' (entry into a valley where we are under SAM-6 threat for 20-30 seconds = and yes they do fire and you do need to hide behind terrain to break lock)
WP 7, 8 and 9 (Minor turns to make best use of cover from fixed check points)
WP 10 'MIZUR TURN' (critical 120 degree turn just short of an enemy strong point)
WP 11, 12, 13, 14 (Again turns to stay in dead ground)
WP 15 'VALLEY N' ( Hard 100 degree descending turn to run in to pick-up point)
WP 16 'PICK UP' (Take on board men and crates)
WP 17 'CLIMB OUT' (Start of climb to clear 11,000 ft saddle)
WP 18 'TOC' (Top of the ridge at 11,000 ft)
WP 19 'FENCE' (Border and start of descent)
WP 20 and 21 (Following a river)
WP 22 'LAND' (Landing)

It takes time, but 'time spent in planning is seldom wasted'.

It also helps when there are multiple units involved (as in this mission). The top cover and SEAD ac will have different WP, but I will include on their 'itinerary' critical Huey ones such as 'SAM ALLEY@, by when the F-18s should have done their SEAD bit. The other 'named' ones are also on the A-10's system, so that they can monitor progress and knock-out or identify to the RW any threats.

I have gone into detail, to explain why I think named WPs can be very helpful, but must not be overdone - I can only remember 4 or 5 items at any time as you may have noticed.

Incidentally, Andrew, I would like to fly this RW element with you some time, just to check it out and get you views.

Thanks Alan for the detailed post. That's very informative.
I would be very happy to fly the RW element and offer an opinion, let me know when, I can usually do Thursday evening and the occasional Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

[Chris]

In my view there is a big problem when mission writers place full WP paths in missions intended for multi units. The issue is that they are assuming the role of SQN / FLT commander and deciding routes, tactics, ingress IP's, egress, RV and taking command of the complete flight away from those flying it.

I would advocate minimal WPs and name then numerically from 0 and let the flight commanders input other WPs for tactical use.

For F18's there is no auto bullseye function consequently a WP has to be assigned as Bulls. For F18's It would help that WP1 is always EXACTLY centered on the bullseye.

Last night, for whatever reason, only 2 of 4 18's could spawn on the SC after a long wait - same as last week... had a quick look at the miz last night and found no reason why, incidentally give me a shout if wanted and I explain a method to reduce red WPs by 95% for the same result.

[0405 Andrew]

Cheers Chris will do.

[Chris]

For a Huey mission Alan you have so far 18 WPs. DCS auto WP feature on its basic topo maps are normally too big scale to be any good unless your route is very very long and then spamming of the mark point feature is the only way to make sense of it.

Being that the Huey has no NAV gear handling WPs unless you are in 2D with a bolt on Garmin its going to be difficult.

Of course you can use a route card but would need 2 / 3 for that size and to work requires time to WP, speed to fly, crosswind components, correct tactics to engage SP and RP points etc for which few have trained for.

[Flyco]

Chris, I confess that I don't understand some of the points you make. Certainly, for the mission I am talking about, the WPs on the standard DCS large scale Kneeboard Map are easily discernible. The legs vary from 2 to 6 minutes as I recall it, and, as I said, some of the intermediate WPs have a number only and are there solely to ensure that you do not inadvertently enter a blind valley, or over-fly a known enemy position. I am very much 'old school' and would not dream of flying a low level without a fully annotated map, just as we taught on the JP. I think you will find that most RAF pilots still carry a paper back-up for if (when?) the nav system goes 'tits-up'

As for individual Flt Cdrs drawing up their own routes I am all for it - I think we should try it. However, for other than the most trivial of routings and tasks there will always be a need for co-ordination of timings and routes right from the start of the planning. In the DCS missions that I have written over the past 5-6 years on RAF Air, I have always flown every aircraft type on the route I had planned (other than the F-14 - I get nose-bleeds when I go that high). Then I produced a detailed brief for each Flt and left Flt Ldrs to conduct the Flt brief from that. Unfortunately, the number of ac has increased and I have got older (and all you younger buggers have got smarter) so that I no longer feel capable of doing that.

I think that last night's Dark Plains - good though it was - identified the problems of integrating so many separate tasks, and the need for separate briefs well before departure. This is in no way disparaging of Andrew, who is clearly not afraid to seek advice and work at making his skills better. More power to his elbow, and anything I can do to help with that, I will do, hence my detailed response to his question. I am not suggesting it as the only correct way, and it is certainly open to improvement.

Just to get back onto my hobby-horse for a minute or two, I believe that the direction we are now taking to produce combine missions is not the ideal way. Instead, someone needs to outline a draft mission involving 3 -6 different types and tasks, and then farm it out to the 'Type Experts' to put the bones on their elements. The whole should then be examined by the originator to ensure that it meshes, seeking advice and making changes where he spots a glitch. If necessary elements of the mission should be test flown by the experts - and I hereby exclude myself from that group.

In real life, in this day and age (and for some time) Flt Cdrs have not planned individual missions except in very specific aspects. The 'Master Plan' comes from Command, where individual Type Experts put it together as an integrated whole. Then it goes to Stn or Sqn level for comment as required. As long ago as the late 1960s and early 70s, I flew on extended sorties of up to 3-4 hrs and up to 33 C-130s (it should have been 36 but we could never get enough ac together at the same time) either as an RAF task or combined with other air forces - I took 3 x C-130s to Turkey for a combined exercise with the USAF and the Turkish Air-force - and I certainly had bugger-all to do with the detailed planning. In the event the weather was bad, so the Turks didn't fly and the USAF flew at 2000 ft, out of the turbulence, while we stuck to the 250 agl - Boy, after an hour and a half at low level in the Turkish hills - were those paras quick to get out of the back - Ah! Happy Days.

Incidentally Chris you are very welcome to come along on our planned low level if you want. I will happily listen to all the advice that anyone has to offer, but they are going to have to be prepared to consider my responses - good or bad.