Carrier SOPs

Flyco
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Flyco »

OK, I'll change that.

Incidentally, I think I have found out why the pick up of ac on the stack is variable. From a post in the Forums, it seems that you ned to fly upwind of the Carrier by around 1 nm before starting turn., I was turning overhead and then catching up from behind. I've just tried the new system once and it worked straight off.
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Neil Willis
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Neil Willis »

Makes sense.
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Phantom »

What I have noticed after doing some sessions as LSO are the following.

1. Too many calls. You are all making too many calls. for example 'iam airborne', 'extending upwind' and calls along those lines.
1a. Abeam and Ball call missing from script you have running which is real usefull and is in 113 missions.

2. No calls when needed. For example when going into the hold no one is calling there position. This is a blind call e.g. '102 position'. This call wil give the LSO a little SA when planning to commence the next set of aircraft into the case 1 circuit.

3. Descends and commencment are done from postion 3. When Mother gives the instruction '102 clear commence at postion 3' this means that 102 has been given clearence to extend and descend out of the marshall hold and into case 1/2 circuit. descending at point 3 gives you a better visual to see aircraft approaching the stern of the carrier.

4. Marshall hold altitudes are 1000's of feet starting at 2000ft and upwards.

5. Do not assume that if you are inbound you will be straight in, we could be busy on deck, you may be sent up to hold in the marshall.

6. hold speed for marshal stacks is 250kts and 30° angle of bank.

7. when in formation and braking into the circuit you should be at 350kts and if in formation you should be brake 20s apart. For airfields this is 250kts and 17s. Dont know why this is its Septic Fish-head rules?????

8. So you can visualise your glide-scope better set up ICLS and turn it on, it helps a lot.

9. I do not have any Tracking equipment so I set up the HSI with BRC and bring down the range to 5 miles to give a birds eye view of my pattern, this helps me to do atleast some decent approaches.

10. Ideal landing weight is below 36,000 lbs or look at the fuel page you ideally want to be below 6.5. You will get a lot more response out of your aircraft if you look at this.

11. Hook should be down and ready at the following steps in your approach. When you join the marshal stack, when coming straight into the case 1 pattern at initials. This is so when you are checking if the deck is clear the deck crew can check that your hook is good.

Phantom

Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Phantom »

What I have noticed after doing some sessions as LSO are the following.

1. Too many calls. You are all making too many calls. for example 'iam airborne', 'extending upwind' and calls along those lines.
1a. Abeam and Ball call missing from script you have running which is real usefull and is in 113 missions.

2. No calls when needed. For example when going into the hold no one is calling there position. This is a blind call e.g. '102 position'. This call wil give the LSO a little SA when planning to commence the next set of aircraft into the case 1 circuit.

3. Descends and commencment are done from postion 3. When Mother gives the instruction '102 clear commence at postion 3' this means that 102 has been given clearence to extend and descend out of the marshall hold and into case 1/2 circuit. descending at point 3 gives you a better visual to see aircraft approaching the stern of the carrier.

4. Marshall hold altitudes are 1000's of feet starting at 2000ft and upwards.

5. Do not assume that if you are inbound you will be straight in, we could be busy on deck, you may be sent up to hold in the marshall.

6. hold speed for marshal stacks is 250kts and 30° angle of bank.

7. when in formation and braking into the circuit you should be at 350kts and if in formation you should be brake 20s apart. For airfields this is 250kts and 17s. Dont know why this is its Septic Fish-head rules?????

8. So you can visualise your glide-scope better set up ICLS and turn it on, it helps a lot.

9. I do not have any Tracking equipment so I set up the HSI with BRC and bring down the range to 5 miles to give a birds eye view of my pattern, this helps me to do atleast some decent approaches.

10. Ideal landing weight is below 36,000 lbs or look at the fuel page you ideally want to be below 6.5. You will get a lot more response out of your aircraft if you look at this.

11. Hook should be down and ready at the following steps in your approach. When you join the marshal stack, when coming straight into the case 1 pattern at initials. This is so when you are checking if the deck is clear the deck crew can check that your hook is good.

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Neil Willis
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Neil Willis »

A couple of points there...

You should hold at max endurance in the holding pattern. That does generally equate to around 250 knots in the Hornet, however, but it is not necessarily so.

You should never land at a gross weight of more than 33000 lbs. It is possible to land at 34000 lbs - with clearance from the Air Boss, but this is exceptional, and we should always work to the 33000 lbs figure.
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Flyco »

The correct speed to maintain in the circular Marshal Stack, seems to be a very moot point. The only formal statement I can find is that it should be at best endurance speed. That will range from about 230 kias to 260 kts for an F-18, depending on weight and drag index.

It is also apparent from some sources that up to 4 separate aircraft ( or aircraft formations) might all share the same orbit height. I can see problems if each of those 4 groups were to chose different holding speeds - even by 20-30 kts.

Finally, although I have not been able to find the official documentation for F-18 operations, I have downloaded the equivalent for the USN Goshawk, and it is on these that I have based my F-18 SOPs. So far as I can see the quoted speeds for the Goshawk are all 50 kits less than those that I have found quoted for the F-18. The Goshawk uses 200 kias for the hold, and 250 kias for the transit from the hold to the break into the circuit.

It doesn’t really matter what speed we decide on, within a reasonable range. But what is important is that we define a specific speed, to be used by everyone. Given that the original section was accepted when I first issue it for comment, I suggest we should not lightly change them.

Similarly, where I am unable to positively confirm further paramaeters I will make what I think is a reasonable guess. If on initial issue for comments, any of these attract concern we can look again at them, and reach a compromise.

On the matter of R/T there is a similar great variance of what calls are a made, and when, with no 2 ‘authorities’ (if that is the right word) on the forums agreeing. In our case, unlike some other larger organisations, there is no permanent ATC input. At the same time, members need to know what is going on and where other aircraft are. So there will always be some compromises and I plan to try and come up with R/T procedures which work without being inadequate or over-complex, and yet can accommodate flying with or without artificial LSO inputs.

I am not sure that I will have a satisfactory set of recovery SOPs ready for Tuesday, and even if I did that would not give time for perople to become familiar. Nevertheless, I will press on and issue them for comment as soon as they are reasonable coherent. I can, if you wish, publish what I have to date but there is still a degree of editing to do yet.
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Flyco »

I have completed a first copy of the next stage of the F-18 SOPs covering recovery and Landing (less Case 3). It is a little disjointed to cater for circumstances both with, and without an auto-LSO system, but I hope to refine it later.

I have attached a copy for member's views.
Attachments
Carrier SOPs - Recovery and Landing.pdf
(955.85 KiB) Downloaded 220 times
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Neil Willis
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Neil Willis »

The holding pattern speed needs to be re-worded. It is 250 knots for the Hornet (which coincides with max endurance at 2000 ft alt) but it will be different for any other airframes we fly (the Tomcat and Skyhawk will have different max endurance profiles), and so we ought to use the term "maximum endurance" to specify holding speed and not 250 knots.


Add the word "astern" after 3nm in the paragraph regarding break to join.

The angle of bank will depend upon your airspeed at entry into the break. This should be specified 1% of airspeed in terms of G pulled initially on the break. It is normal to close the throttles and start to slow for the approach when abeam of the boat, and depending on headwinds, the turn may be made at speeds as low as 280 knots and therefore a 2.8 G turn would be needed. The turn should also be reduced to match the reducing airspeed during the turn.

The turn can be commenced as close as 0.5 nm DME from the boat, or extended further than 1.5 nm to give 45 seconds separation from aircraft already occupying the pattern. It would be useful to add that the aim is to achieve 1.1 - 1.2 miles abeam the boat at the 90.

This turn should also be a descending turn - an exception to the rule that all descents should be made abaft the beam and all climbs ahead of the beam of the boat when in the pattern.

The ball call - and all calls to the LSO should be side number and not tactical call sign. If the pilot is undergoing carrier qualification assessment, the ball call should also contain the pilot's own callsign (i.e. "405, Flyco, Hornet, Ball, 2.4").

Missed approach - "level the aircraft at 600kias is incorrect. "If you are spinning, climb to 500 ft amsl before turning" "climb to 1,200 ft amsl and accelerate to 350 kias if there are 2 or more aircraft in the pattern ahead of the bow" or climb and maintain 500 ft amsl until 7 miles ahead of the boat prior to requesting a marshal stack rejoin". Airspeed can be held at on-speed AOA if an immediate turn back into the landing pattern at 1.0 nm is anticipated. My interpretation is that the spin pattern is only used when the pattern is currently occupied by 2 ahead of the boat, otherwise, an immediate re-entry to the circuit is permitted.
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Neil Willis »

I have found that to reliably hit the LSO trigger when in the holding pattern, you need to start your turn around a mile ahead of the boat rather than just continuing the 30 degrees banked turn at the bow. I was regularly missing the trigger if I turned too soon.
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Flyco
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Re: Carrier SOPs

Post by Flyco »

Thanks for response Neil. I will cover your points in order

I am not convinced that we should specify endurance speed rather than a specific speed for the marshal hold. I don't see the relevance of different ac holding different speeds - these SOPs are for F/A-18 only. It also doesn't cater for multiple ac at the same hold height but at different weight - their endurance speeds would be different. I would rather stick with a fixed figure.

Will add 'astern'.

The book says the turn may be begun at any time after passing the bow - I recall seeing a maxiumum range, but I can't find the reference - I think it is 2 nm. I put in the range as a guide, but will remove mention of it if you wish.

I am sure that I recall seeing somewhere that the upwind turn is to be level until rolling out, when you descend to 600 ft. I would certainly find a descending turn easier. I assumed it was to avoid any possibly clash with an aircraft downwind at 600 ft, that the breaking ac had not picked up.

The ball call should certainly use Side-Number. My problem is that I am not clear where you use S/N and where you use C/S. Certainly in the LSO dialogue they use S/N, but I am not clear about general handling, and DCS will continue to use C/S. If you wish I will change all references from C/S to S/N, but if we are only going to do this for certain circumstances we need to be specific. Looks like another post-it note to put on my monitor - along with my name etc!!

Missed Approach, was meant to cover the immediate actions. I can delete the following elements if you wish, or just list them as options. However, I would not like to give the impression that every bolter or overshoot requires a return to the stack. We are going to lose some ac due to fuel starvation after 2 or 3 bolters if we do (me included)!

re- your following post. I agree about over-running the boat before resuming the turn in the Marshal Stack. Although I think that this is just the Alerax process that this applies to. I am not convinced that running Alerax and the V117 together does not cause some glitches and clashes.
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