Formation Trng

User avatar
Alien
Posts: 810
Joined: 09 Sep 2019, 21:40
Location: Surrey

Re: Formation Trng

Post by Alien »

Rgr mate I get that, I was asking if the turns that these A10c's make are applicable to fast movers,, ie check 90, hook, into wingman etc etc

I would assume so but we all know what Assuming gets you.
Shane Cowan callsign: 'ALIEN' - RAF Air UK
Image
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Alien
Posts: 810
Joined: 09 Sep 2019, 21:40
Location: Surrey

Re: Formation Trng

Post by Alien »

Pongo wrote: 14 May 2020, 15:41
Alien wrote: 14 May 2020, 14:52 Good stuff Pongo,

I watched this video of Recon over and over when training for my tick in the box with the 132nd, I know this is A10C but do the same principles apply ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HLXP1Mz70o&t=739s
The link takes me to the point in the video where they are about to overhead break for landing, was that bit you meant?

I notice the lead guy says he pulls 3g on the break, which is fine to set a finite g limit for an aircraft that is only ever going to land on tarmac. For a navy aircraft designed to circle a boat and land on it, we need to have a slightly more precise method of turn radius measurement and offset from the deck, so we go with 10% of indicated air speed for the break.

When we go to the boat, we should be 350kts at 800ft when we break, so we would break, chop throttle as we pull 3.5g and let the g come off as the speed does to maintain 10%, at or below 250kts drop the gear and below 200kts the flaps, by which point you should be on the downwind at 1.2nm offset from the deck which gives you a 30 degree angle of bank constant turn at the abeam point to land on the deck.
The whole vid, before the overhead break :)
Shane Cowan callsign: 'ALIEN' - RAF Air UK
Image
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Mad dog
Posts: 553
Joined: 14 Apr 2020, 22:36
Location: Mansfield

Re: Formation Trng

Post by Mad dog »

Ah right lol, I'll watch it shortly. I think I saw a cross 180 when I clicked back a bit and they seemed to be doing the same as we have written, but I will check properly.

@Mutley Where is this manual you speak of ?
Flight Lieutenant
Steve "Mad dog" Loates
RAF Air UK - XI (F) Sqn

Sqn Chief Flying Instructor

Image

Image Image
Image ImageImage


User avatar
Mad dog
Posts: 553
Joined: 14 Apr 2020, 22:36
Location: Mansfield

Re: Formation Trng

Post by Mad dog »

Okay Shane, having watched the whole vid, yep it's mostly relevant. There are a couple of minor differences based on aircraft type, capabilities and sensors etc. but its largely the same stuff we have written and as per the diagrams I tried to draw.

A couple of differences:

1. They fly co-altitude as they are not sweeping for A2A engagement, we should fly with 1000ft altitude separation. When we do the cross 180, we don't need to watch, especially at night or in dodgy weather, for each other as we know we are 1000ft different altitude when we cross.

2. When they do the "into wingman 90" or "delayed 90" as I have called it, the guy who is flying straight ahead has to watch over his tail for the cross point to turn. To me this negates the reason for the turn. The guy who is doing the crossing element should call "6 clear" on the aircraft flying on original heading, then that aircraft turns 90 degrees to match up.

3. That shackle move is horrid, not what I have learned, taught or ever done. It's a sure fire way of smashing into each other in any condition other than VMC! I have seen it shown the same way elsewhere on this forum, but to me a shackle is a wingman changing sides. If in fingertip or cruise formation, the wingman drops down around 50ft and crosses sides by gently sliding across behind and beneath the lead and then pops back up on the other wing of the lead to where they started. A shackle call can be made by the lead OR the wingman, so if you are on the left ad wingman coming in for a left hand turn to initial point for an overhead break, lead is going to turn in front of you so it is often easier and safer to go to the outside of the turn as wingman. In this case starting from the inside of the turn call "2, shackle" and slide over to the outside of the turn and I detailed above. In combat spread, a shackle is a longer move as your wingman could have to fly almost 2nm to change sides, so I guess some sort of procedure needs to be figured out for that, but I have never needed to do that yet.

If the wing dictates we do shackle the way of the video, I'll go with that, it's just not the way I have done it in the past is all I'm saying.

Good vid though!
Flight Lieutenant
Steve "Mad dog" Loates
RAF Air UK - XI (F) Sqn

Sqn Chief Flying Instructor

Image

Image Image
Image ImageImage

User avatar
john (scooby)
Posts: 1910
Joined: 31 May 2018, 15:40

Re: Formation Trng

Post by john (scooby) »

il go with whatever you tell me pongo
Sqn Ldr (Scooby) Burton RAF Air UK
XI(F) Sqn 2ic
Image Image
Image
Image
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Training Missions”