12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

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0405 Andrew
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by 0405 Andrew »

Good to see ground targets twice in a row. Unfortunately one shot me down!

Please give feedback, their was some stuttering issues with a couple of pilots from 892, did anyone else have more problems than normal?

I was shot down early, my own fault, I was able to watch a few greedy fellows hang on a bit to long, I knew leaving unlimited ammo ticked would catch a few out. I'll change for next week to save you from yourselves.

This mission will be run again next week with some tweaks. I'll put a miz up on Friday.
0405 ANDREW

Tuesday Mission group lead
"Andrew, you are right"
Flyco: 28 Jul 2021, 12:50
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Chris
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by Chris »

892NAS fielded seven aircraft and an enjoyable time was had by all. Many thanks to our good friends in 11SQN, this is first time any one has put on a bar-b-que before take off rather than on return, we all enjoyed the sausages, thanks ever so much lads....

A few hiccups, the Teddy was not configured for TACAN or ICLS other than default '1' but it was not a problem, made people think outside of the box and use EWR or RADAR to get back.

As far as feedback.. Andrew knows my views well on RAFAir Group Missions and overall command and control from a fighting perspective, that simply does not happen... it goes back to a previous thread long ago when I said
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The mission was absolutely excellent in catering for a clatter of separate uncoordinated squadrons doing there own thing with a vague common direction. Attendance is not known often until a few hours before the mission and squadron attendance is not guaranteed regularly as well - 41F decided not to fly this week it so that's 10-12 aircraft not in.... and the mission ran and will run next week with them in.... so feedback on the Mission with these changeable resources is that it was great job and all the 892NAS enjoyed it and Andrew, thank you for your time and patience.

Feedback, on mission concept and execution is difficult for me with these influencing circumstances, but I feel so much potential is just passing us by.

That said, on IADS
I think there were a lot of EWR transmitters that didn't seem to do much, we (892NAS) just ignored them with impunity so maybe consider more of an cascading umbrella network, maybe 3 high top EWRs with some sort of protection, connect them to COMMAND & CONTROL Centres, add dependent POWER sources, connect ALL SAM sites to the COMMAND & CONTROL. Give the major SAMS POWER sources... It is not too difficult and I am willing to script it all in if you wish.

Why you may ask, because it 'SHOULD' work more effectively and can be DOWNGRADED just like in RL. Take out the COMMAND & CONTROL, IADS is degraded, take out POWER sources and dependent item(s) are downgraded, Take out EWR and IADS is downgraded.

So then what now, and here's the rub, get the squadrons to talk together and use there strengths to punch a hole through the IADS and destroy whatever the target is.... Not enough people, go for a smaller target...
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Getting Squadrons to talk to each other and agree a comman supportive operation has been tried and failed. But to really put the cat amongst the pigeons here's another option to consider - RAFAir fighting capability enhancement could be achieved overall and certainly in missions by:

a
  • 97SQN and 3F and perhaps a flight of 1F should form a LAND COMMAND and train, fight and play together. UH1h & AH-64 flight could be added.
  • 11F, 892NAS and perhaps a flight of 1F on the TARAWA should form a NAVAL COMMAND and train, fight and play together. A flight of Mi17 & AH64 could be realistically added tot he Tarwawa or Super Carrier
  • 41F by there ethos could only be a separate entity.


Many pilots are multiskilled to various degrees in 2 or more aircraft F14 / 18 / / AV8 Helos for example and the A10 / F16 / Helos so there would be great added flexibility within each command to undertake many tasks, the pilots would have good knowledge of all personalities, procedures and skill sets whatever craft they flew.


There, I did it again, despite all my promises to self to 'zip up' I've opened my mouth wide yet again and probably will suffer the consequences for a long time. Someone please, shove Me back in the box an put a padlock on the lid and throw away the key... please form an orderly queue....
Kind Regards
Chris :)

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0405 Andrew
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by 0405 Andrew »

As always Chris, many thanks for your thought provoking post.

As stated in the 2nd post of this thread:

This mission is an introduction to IADS, this is not a SEAD mission to dismantle the IADS, however air defences can be taken out, but the IADS script here is a simple version and will only have Early Warning Radar and SAMs implemented with one point defence SAM included.

The IADS will be implemented in a larger scale for SEAD missions and help with scripting is always welcome. But a large IADS network isn't always needed and it depends on the mission. I'm not sure how a large network will impact on simulation performance (frame rates), I have read that it can have an impact. I wonder if this is why Neil had stuttering when he went feet dry, that would have been when he was detected.

The tacan wasn't set up for the carrier, sorry about that I missed it, ironically it was set up for the Tarawa, did it work? It will be set for next week. But please everyone, when I send the check miz out, please check assets that you want to use, tanker, carrier, air bases for crosswind. It's very easy to miss things and a second set of eyes will avoid that.

I would add that 41F and 3F have worked together harmoniously in the past and I'm sure they will in the future. I shall make a plug here, anyone can come and join the mission group (you included Chris) and help mould the Tuesday slot, changes, if wanted can be made there and ideas exchanged, but missions will be produced to hopefully what RAF Air want rather than forcing something through. Maybe we need a RAF Air strategist that can set out long term goals of where we should be heading, I imagine you would need a committee for that. I'll book a meeting room for you all. :lol:

This mission will be running again next week with some changes and bugs ironed out. Miz should be up on Friday.

Personally I had a good mission and didn't mind personally checking to see if the SAM's were working and not firing dud's.
0405 ANDREW

Tuesday Mission group lead
"Andrew, you are right"
Flyco: 28 Jul 2021, 12:50
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Chris
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by Chris »

Andrew, you asked for feedback... I gave it. They are not criticisms, they do not have to be rebutted. A good debrief session is to let feedback flow without further input from those asking. When all in, summarise and respond collectively taking onboard any valid points for improvement. Rebuttals or rustication in the mix just stifle further feedback and debate amongst the clients, so to speak. (I used to run courses on the art for extensive RL operations)

You are doing a great job mate, I do not forget that.

The IADS was not small nor simple. There were in excess of 100 RED SAM objects which included 7 EWRS spread over 20 plus sites (thats over 27 radar units) then you have BLUE again with over 100 SAM objects over 12 plus sites (ships are radar).

That is an awful lot for DCS to handle in a multi client plane scenario. With IADS script IF COMMAND & CONTROL CONTROL routes are not defined, as in this case, I suspect the IADS will try and do everything by default as described in the docs.

I would suggest 2 EWRs, no more, with around 30 SAM objects in say 8 groups giving a total of 10 RADAR units and have them connected via nodes and control centres and if desired some have power. Place them around targets, have a coordinated plan and you have a valid test.
Kind Regards
Chris :)

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0405 Andrew
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by 0405 Andrew »

Thanks Chris, I understand that they weren't criticisms in fact you very kindly said it was a good mission, overall. I did ask for feedback and thanks for giving it. Not so much a rebuttal just explanations of where the mission was aiming.

I would appreciate any help offered in getting the IADS up and running better. I had just meant a simple IADS with no nodes, power etc and that this would not be a SEAD mission.
0405 ANDREW

Tuesday Mission group lead
"Andrew, you are right"
Flyco: 28 Jul 2021, 12:50
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Chris
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by Chris »

Of course mate, as much as you want...
Kind Regards
Chris :)

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0405 Andrew
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by 0405 Andrew »

I have a free pass all weekend, if you're around.
0405 ANDREW

Tuesday Mission group lead
"Andrew, you are right"
Flyco: 28 Jul 2021, 12:50
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Chris
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by Chris »

Kind Regards
Chris :)

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Matt
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Re: 12/10/21 Palmyra Attack

Post by Matt »

Hi Andrew,

Only real points for 1(F) Squadron:

Unlimited weapons took us by surprise :lol:
Some strange performances from our CCIP which gave us no pipper line what so ever....strange.
Also in terms of the IADS we conducted a low level (40ft) flight across ocean and land to make out way towards the target without a single ping if any hostile RWR until we were within 10nm from out target (EWR site) not sure if this is by design or not but the system let us well within itself before any system became online and by the time it did we had already launched on its EWR site given as out target location.

But in terms of the planning and execution for 1(F) our plan worked flawlessly.

Matt.
Air Commodore Matt Purnell - RAF Air UK
CO 1(F) Squadron
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