Re: Zapad 2021 7th December

[Chris]

viewtopic.php?p=38837#p38837 page of this topic followed by viewtopic.php?p=38842#p38842 would be the guts Danny...

In short all RAFAIR missions have a rolling designated Air Commander who 'chairs' a short SQN planning session a week or so before mission date resulting in a coordinated agreed plan to achieve the mission objective / goal. From this the Commander and Mission writer agree and issue the FRAG. SQNs prepare their own brief. On the night the Commander may make any adjustments to the plan to deal with problems such as a no show tasked for an indispensable task.

[Danny]

That didn't answer the question really. If the plan is to re-introduce the Air Commander on the night I don't think that is the way ahead nor the problem.

Last time it was tried it was a disaster, a meeting was suggested but nothing much happened after that. viewtopic.php?f=283&t=4954.

We generally operate, currently, in a fairly static environment with very few moving units and we generally have a very clear picture of where everything is. A better use of someones time that isnt flying would be as AWACS as the situation is much more dynamic.

If the plan is only to take some of the load off Andrew, or whoever writes the mission then that makes perfect sense. Otherwise this is just another layer of unnecessary complexity.

Generally the mission goes well and have done for a while without the extra faff. Last night as Andrew (de-facto Air Commander) wanted:

1 Sqn tasked with destroying vehicles moving through box - passed to 3 Sqn. Task undertaken but unable to find convoy.
3 Sqn tasked to SEAD northern SA-6 - completed
XI Sqn tasked for AD and ground attack - AD complete. They were on the wrong side of SA-10, planning error.
41 Sqn tasked with Ground attack - complete.
97 Sqn tasked with ground attack - partially complete due to lack of numbers
892 tasked with SEAD - complete

All in all a successful mission in that everyone knew what they had to do, and carried it out as best they could.

3. Keep it simple, use a google Jamboard, the plan is bullet points, arrows and TOT numbers - each take a screenprint when finished.

This may have prevented XI being stuck on the wrong side of SA-10's

Helping with XI and 97 could have been done with good and early comms on 251.00 (not like it was busy on there) by the 20 odd ground attack aircraft knocking about.

We tried this once, it failed. It failed at SQN level because the information at COs level did not reach the pilot writing SQN briefing.

Really, bit of a cheap, unsubstantiated dig there mate.

To sum it all up. The Air commander is only a move in the right direction if it is to help ease the burden of the mission planner and only in the planning phase. Early communication is the key, because lets face it, most of the issues happen last minute on the night due to real life.

[0405 Andrew]

I don't think it's to introduce a commander on the night, apart from say changing targets because of absences, much like you did on Tuesday. It's more to coordinate the planning.

Week one Saturday - The work flow should go something like this. Mission designer releases the intel miz listing targets and mission objectives.
Week one Tuesday - The mission commander then assigns the targets to each squadron, meeting 7.30 on TS. (Much the same as the current missions with the FRAG.)
Week one - The mission commander writes the FRAG after looking at the miz file and after consulting with squadron commanders. Squadron's write their miz's.
Week two Saturday night deadline - The FRAG is passed back to the mission designer with individual sqn miz files and the writer then fills in the mission.
Week two Monday - The Intel .miz is published showing all squadron flights and other items that are relevant. Mission commander checks. Mistakes are then corrected.
Week two Tuesday - We all fly and have a good time.
Week two Wednesday - After the disastrous mission the night before, the commander gets roasted and leaves RAF Air never to return or everyone gets a pat on the back on a successful mission and a good night was had by all.

Whether this adds another complication we'll see. I think we should be able to turn out 2 missions a month, it may be that the mission is repeated the following week to iron out any niggles, or a new cycle begins.

The commander would be changed each cycle if there are people willing to do it.

[Chris]

Hi Danny,

I don't think I can be any clearer than my post viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5160&start=20

It is my opinion, period. I believe it would make a difference to RAFAIR operating as a group with all the varying skill levels that we cater for amongst the Squadrons and do not in the slightest see it as

just another layer of unnecessary complexity.

But then we are all different, and have different opinions, thankfully.

We tried this once, it failed. It failed at SQN level because the information at COs level did not reach the pilot writing SQN briefing.
Really, bit of a cheap, unsubstantiated dig there mate.

There was no dig, implied or otherwise. I do not 'do' 'digs' or other such silly nonsense generally used to 'score points' or attempt to undermine people. Well over 50% of my time in DCS is spent helping others and promoting RAFAIR not out of any sense of personal gain or advantage or ego bolstering but I suppose because I stupidly feel that by working together and striving to improve we will all gain in the long run. It is in this context that I take exception to your comment and certainly to me the use of the word 'mate' seems unnecessary.

With Kind Regards
Chris

[Father Cool]

Just to make clear Uzi 3, myself, made multiple calls to request for someone to task on taking out the SA10 that was causing us trouble.

As soon as I arrived on CAP and was lit up, and once I had establish a safe orbit futher south, I tuned to 120.5 to contact enfield, I tried to reach someone for a good 5 mins before switching to 251 to make a general call. It was then a comsiderable amount of time again before anyone replied to my call and was then told that there was no one to help. It was like trying to get through to customer service.

[Chris]

Comms at Incirlik were good, I heard all Sqn's except 892, I think someone from 892 mentioned you heard nothing at Incirlik, perhaps you had wrong freq's 360.10?

My Bad, didn't pick up on FRAG freq, I briefed the Incirlick lower one, 122.1

As soon as I arrived on CAP and was lit up, and once I had establish a safe orbit futher south, I tuned to 120.5 to contact enfield, I tried to reach someone for a good 5 mins before switching to 251 to make a general call. It was then a comsiderable amount of time again before anyone replied to my call and was then told that there was no one to help. It was like trying to get through to customer service.

At times we were using COMM1 in ADF mode but always listening out on COMM2 251.0 where I think Neil came back to you...

[Beanie]

Thank you for organising this mission. I had loads of fun looking for targets but for some odd reason I just couldn’t find them to start with. However, when I did catch a glimpse of the blighters they found 6 x AGM-65D’s heading their way.

@Gizzy I passed your message on and the reply was “I’ll send him my address”. And of course “thank you”

Andy

[Grillman]

Thanks for a nice mission gents.

If this mission is flown again at some point in the future, please adjust the speed of the Shell-1 tanker. It was flying at 190kts indicated at angels 20. That's about the stall speed of a bomb-loaded F-16C at that height!

Grillman

[0405 Andrew]

Will do, sorry about that. Always worth a check when the miz goes out. What speed would you like it?

[Father Cool]

For this mission I would also make provision for a tanker near Beriut or similar as it was a long way back for uzi to top up. We were all getting pretty low even as we settled in due to the SAMs. On station we can go for hours but if things kick off we can burn juice pretty fast.